William Wallenmeyer, “LNS Through the Eyes of the Funders” - LNS46 Symposium: On the Matter of Particles

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KERMAN: If I can have your attention, I would like to introduce our luncheon speaker. I'm Arthur Kerman. Bill Wallmeyer is someone who in the proverbial phrase doesn't need any introduction, because almost all of us have had something to do with him over the last 30 years or longer. We were really pleased to hear that he had positive enough feelings about us to come to this celebration and to give us a little talk about his interaction with us.

He tells me that before he went to the DOE 30 years ago, he was the director of the Accelerated Division at MURA, which is something goes away to the distant past. If I remember right, it was an organization that was supposed to design some accelerators. But he's been at the DOE since 1962, and the head of high energy physics of basically all that time. And of course, not since 1962, because four years ago or five years ago he became president at SURA, the Southeastern University's Research Association. And I've had some interactions with him recently because of CEBAF.

But during the time he was at DOE, we always looked to him to make the right decisions about the physics. And as I said, I'm very happy that he agreed to come and address us. Without further ado, Bill Wallmeyer.

WALLENMEYER: Thank you, Art.


I didn't know I was to say good things about LNS. He didn't give me that condition. Lee called me some time ago. And though I really can't speak, and you'll find that out later. I'm always we can say yes when somebody calls me early enough.

Lee has always been in front of me for many years. And he and I were at Purdue together. And even though he's younger than I, he was working on his PhD when I was still working on my Masters. Also, one of our colleagues in the physics department taking pity on the poor graduate students or male graduates, fellow graduate students in the physics department, got us together for Coke date with some of her sorority sisters.

And though I thought I was pretty fast in calling one of the young ladies, Lee had already had a date with her by the time I called. Fortunately, she did reluctantly schedule me in too. And she's my wife of today. But anyways, the same.

I heard Vicky this morning talk about the fact that, as you get older the years get shorter. And by gosh, they get shorter. Other things that happen of course, is it really true what they say. It's gets so you can't remember names.

Art Kerman and I were going through something about the first name, and then the last name we with a K, et cetera. And that kind of thing. But one of the difficulties I've had, problems I've had, is that I get older, it gets later and later before I start trying to prepare what I'm going to say. As a result of that, I've well passed the point towards I won't be prepared for this talk until sometime next week, as you'll find. But a few words anyway.

Lee and the program committee gave me a title of LNS Through the Eyes of the Funders. And I said well, that sounds OK. I'm taking that to mean the view from a farmer DOE Program Office of the DOE. And therefore I would apologize to my friends, particularly, which I've been more interacting with in recent years than before, in nuclear physics, in that most of what I talk to relate to experiences in high energy physics. Though certainly LNS is even more a nuclear physics lab at the present time, certainly in terms of funding, than it is high energy physics.

Something must be quiescent or something. But anyway, for example, the current funding in '92 I'm told for nuclear physics at LNS is some $16 million, while in higher energy physics is somewhat less than $10 million. Still, by the way, in each program, the largest university contractor of all, both in nuclear physics and in higher energy physics.

Anyway, I have a few words here of the program office is working at the interface between science and government. I have in that position in the past, been privileged to walk among the giants on both sides of that interface. And I would say I've done my best and haven't been squashed too badly by their feet. But many of those giants indeed, have tried the paths of LNS. The great stature of people with dedication and commitment, highest quality, always willing to give themselves fully in the interest of the program and science.

I can't recall in all the many years that indeed, I did have the program office for higher energy physics at DOE that I asked somebody to serve on a committee to do something for the program that they said anything but yes. It's hard to believe, but it's indeed true. That's the kind of people that are in the field. Now I must say that my colleagues at that time in the funding agency were very much the same. The government worker gets bad marks, certainly from presidential candidates.

The ones that I worked with I found of outstanding commitment and indeed high capability. I think part of that of course, was associated with the program that both not only the scientists, but also the government employees agreed that it was indeed a most worthwhile and meaningful effort in which to be involved.

I'd like to say just a few marks. Of course, remarks about the federal support for science. The federal government became a major player in the support of science and basic research after World War II, and coincidentally the beginning of LNS 1946. I've of course, puzzled maybe why.

Some of the things I think are obvious. It's a recognition of the importance and the great contributions that the academic community made to the war effort, things such as very close to here. The radar, proximity fuse, nuclear power, other things.

And indeed, as I think we learned earlier, Bruno Rossi, Vicki Weiskopf, Gerald Zacharias, and not Martin Deutsch. Martin was here well before. He may have returned, but well before the '46. I won't tell Martin. Martin's been here quite a while.

--from the Los Alamos effort to that work here at that time, '46. the other thing is I think the federal establishment recognized that the US was most fortunate in World War II to have been able to draw on the European science and scientists for our effort here.

The other thing is is that the federal government is the most appropriate place-- and that's been recognized certainly very strongly in recent administrations-- most appropriate place to support basic research. The pay off with basic research, I think we're all well assured is well assured. We all know it's well assured, but where and when is too uncertain for our private industry.

And then of course there was a major shock in 1957 with the launching of Sputnik to the US. It was thought that clearly we would do that first. Even when I joined the AEC in June of '62, I could still see the funding affect of that going through the system.

The agencies for supported us during these years were the Department of Defense, in particular O&R, which was a most outstanding superb organization for the support of research. Those defense agencies primarily pulled out of this proto research about the mid '60s with the Mansfield Act. Then the other support of course, has been form the Atomic Energy Commission.

Most appropriate in high energy and nuclear physics, since many of the people who wanted to work in that area came from the Manhattan Project. And then I think it was about 1951, the start with about $150,000 as I recall, the start of the National Science Foundation. That's the first, and I guess still the only dedicated science entirely support agency. I got lots of time, haven't I? Well, I will try to go through this.

The pleasant part is you've had with your meal, of course. So I'll show you a few view graphs. Let's see. Just a second. I'll say a few words about them.

As a background, for a few comments I want to make, I hope the background is not too long. I'll try to shorten it. As I said, as I told Art, I didn't know how long I'd talk because I hadn't prepared to talk. As a background for a few more I want to make about--

As all of you know, I do physics as an exploratory science, which is at the forefront of science and technology and for an understanding of the most fundamental nature of matter and energy. It pushes the frontier of each, the science and the technology. And since the beginnings of LNS, you heard some and you'll hear more. There have been have fantastic advances in knowledge and understanding which had been made and high energy and nuclear physics and cosmology during this time. And not all before which can possibly be of course, discussed at this meeting.

Some characteristics of the research, which I've noted is that it's-- and this holds fairly much for nuclear as high energy. Not quite as much because it's not quite as cohesive. High energy is very cohesive and strongly focused in this direction by the fact that it's trying to find out the most fundamental bits about matter and energy and the methods of study which require very large machines or very few machines, and therefore you all have to work together to get-- You have to decide which one you're going to get and you have to work hard to get it, because it's also very expensive and hard to get.

It's sort of a bootstrap science, in my way of thinking, in that experiment advancing theory requires advances in technology which permits advance and experiment et cetera. Very strong international effect. The first point I've noted. I saw it expressed well before it and I can't remember the words. You have as you all know, very open and friendly cooperation and collaboration and very fierce competition and fighting.

And this works not only in the international arena-- and we've been seeing some of it in recent years-- but it also works individual scientists-- the individual scientists group to group, school to school, lab to lab. But somehow it works well to help advance the field. And the long lead time nature, this chart undoubtedly is a little old because I think it's much more than 3 to 5 years from a, research proposal to publication and much more than 8 to 10 years from construction proposal to experimental use. As I recall, the SSC for example, was first decided that something that high energy physics should go up on, July the 12th 1983, which is already nine ago.

Well I never get to it if I don't go faster than this. Excuse me.

The issues and problems-- long lead times, therefore long range planning is very crucially important. Funding stability is very difficult to get, particularly in these days, though we have more funding stability in science than many parts of the national effort, which is funded by the national program. World wide competitive position-- well certainly the US has come from a commanding leadership position to a sharing leadership position.

That's not all bad. Some of it's quite good. New technology development, as we said before, is important for permitting the advances and accelerators and detector capability that are needed for the field to advance.

The structure of the national program-- DOE acts is the executive agent or the lead agency, therefore bears special responsibility for long range planning, for a balanced national program, and for trying to maintain the US in a world at least sharing world leadership role. I've been there in '62, and its predecessor agencies, [INAUDIBLE] and AEC, provided over 90% of the federal support. In the early days when I was there in early '60s, much of the other 5% to 7% to 10% came out of the defense agencies. That shifted in the mid '60s towards the NSF. And of course, for a long time has been entirely the National Science Foundation.

The crucial thing that's been true of the program since it was initiated was the first standing committee advisory committee HEPAP. The role of the university, as you well know, role of leadership, role of doing most of the experiments, theory, and training the new people. One of the responsibilities of the DOE as the lead agency as I said, was a balancing of the program and the factors in. And the balancing of course, there's a good balance between utilization, between construction for the next phase, and for advanced technology R&D in order to go farther than that to get the machines that are needed beyond that.

The structure of the DOE program is of course, three large labs, a large number of experimental users, many theorists, and the much involvement in advanced technology development, primarily at the national laboratories. The other agencies supporting this of course, is the National Science Foundation. They have supporters [INAUDIBLE] all to universities. And they support users, they support theory, and they support what's called the University Laboratory at Cornell, but of course, this is also a National Laboratory Cesar. Though the Department of Energy supports dollar-wise, well over 90% of the program, the National Science Foundation supports approximately one third of the university support needed for the program.

The major objectives of the department are hopefully obvious and hopefully the same as the programs. The high quality productive program with diversity and flexibility to operate the facilities reliably, to construct the new ones as needed, to develop the technology needed to extend the capabilities, to help maintain the US in a competitive world position. A summary of the program philosophy is shown here, where the ideas and proposals are generated from the ground up, by the scientists in the field, the agency with input from the field, and with input from advisory mechanisms, establishes a policy, plans, tries to get the money and budget. The laboratory management or the university principal investigator has the responsibility for the day to day management. And the latter I put on some time ago for DOE.

An important function of the program office at its interface position-- I'm not going to go through this, but just to show the complexity of it is to try indeed to get the funding for the program. And this is essential for all programs. And it's so lengthy, it's so complex, one wonders that that money ever comes out at the end or it even matches the needs. But you start from the individual physicists through their lab or university organization. And each time, of course, it gets consolidated and integrated with other. Then those individual programs go to high energy physics office, and it's worked on there using HEPAP and others and all kinds of advice.

It goes on up through the DOE system, represented that dotted box up to the Office of Management and Budget. It bounces back and forth by the way each of those ports. You fight and as they cut, and then you try to restore and that kind of thing. Goes up the Office of Management and Budget, which gets some advice and sometimes effective under a guy who's presently a consultant and working with the [INAUDIBLE]. He worked very closely with the president science advisor office.

And it was quite effective. And I think that still carries on up through the president over to the Congress, where there's of course the House and Senate, and there are three types of committees there, one in each arm. There is a budget committee which decides how much in general should go split. You take the total for the nation, and you split that amongst all the various categories.

And then there was the authorization committee, which hasn't been very effective or very active recently for Department of Energy. And then you have the appropriations committees that really have to decide how much money you get. Then that all comes back down the same way.

I'd like to show a few budget graphs here, because they really relate to LNS in a number of ways. Here's a pretty one. A little old. Only goes out to fiscal '90 which shows operating in blue, equipment in red, and green is construction. And the Weiskopf years, as chairman of the higher energy physics advisory panel we're '67 to '74.

There to there, followed by the [INAUDIBLE] years, from '74 to '82, followed by the [INAUDIBLE] years up to '87. Then Frances [INAUDIBLE] came on from '87 to '90. And now it's Stan [INAUDIBLE].

Vicky started out in a seemingly relatively affluent area. He had the most difficult job. He not only had to set the rules and set the precedence for HEPAP, but he also had to deal with the fact that first the budget was growing. HEPAP put together a very extensive study group, all kinds of subcommittees. It took 18 months to come out with a very thorough comprehensive report on where high energy physics should be going and what it should be doing.

I still have several copies. They're very good. Unfortunately, if take a look at '69, this is fiscal '69-- so actually, if you take a look at calendar '69, you're really dealing more with fiscal '70, '71. The budget things that happened-- we're in, I guess the Vietnam War. I can still remember one specific thing that happened to my program.

As I recall, it was about November. The appropriations had already happened. And Lyndon Johnson told Wilbur Mills that he wanted an extra tax to get a little extra money to help carry out boat guns and butter. And Wilbur said well, let's see you cut the budget first. He did cut the budget.

As I recall, high energy physics itself lost $10 million that had already been appropriated. And then Wilbur didn't give him the taxes either. But from that time, that would have been about fiscal '70-- fiscal '69 to '70, particularly if you look at the operating represented by the blue line. There was a slide in the support. And by the way, that wasn't just high energy.

That was for all of science. So Vicky and [INAUDIBLE] had to deal with this. And here is a graph you're going to be lost with, but I like it because it says a lot of things. And let me point to a few. The green line here is CEA for example.

Each line represents the total funding support to the laboratory during that period. All separate, there's no integration here. You have the Fermi lab growing here. You have as I say, the CEA terminating here, PPA terminating about a year earlier.

And remember this is Vicky in here from about this period to about this period. So you have all these accelerators here that are coming on and terminating. And you end up here at the end of this period with three laboratories. Fermi lab, this is the Brookhaven AGS, the green here is Slack. and down here is the CGS that we managed to keep operating by three more years by seeing how important it was to do polarized proton studies.

But anyway, I wanted to show that even though it's difficult to understand, to show that in this bulge that you saw here, the time from the bulge to the time when it was really going down, that was when Vicky was chairing the HEPAP. I was told that it was the most respected government advisory committee in all of Washington. And a major reason why that was true, it was that by the mechanism of HEPAP and the credibility. Mechanism being that people had a forum. They could argue their case, they thought fairly.

We could shut down machines and a rather straightforward way. So there was a lot of credibility given to HEPAP in that it was able to do this in a responsible way. I think that's a good part of why they had that credit.

I just show this to show a longer history that goes to today's funding in high energy physics. It shows that in fiscal '93, the budget which isn't determined yet and which isn't going to go up, it's going to go down. Now this does not include the SSC. Well, I won't go back to it. It does show somethings for the SSC on the last one.

The marks that you see here, here, here, here, here, and up to about here, represents the SSE funding on top of the high energy physics. So this budget, this particular one which goes all the way back in 1960-- not back to LNS time-- but it shows that there's about $620 million total in fiscal '93, which is a decrease in [INAUDIBLE]. Now the nuclear physics program, their records-- they don't draft back as far. But they go back to '77. You can see some of the problems that Bates is going to have or is having, and some of the problems the nuclear physics program is having.

If you pay attention to the operating-- it goes up to here. And this is a new operating for CEBAF. And so you see even with the new operating for CEBAF, that the operating level which pays for operations and includes research in terms of cost of value dollars is certainly going down in '93 at the highest funding that the nuclear physics will have. And that's a large part of course because of the major construction that's taking part in that program. Both at CEBAF and Rick, and indeed, in a much smaller scale but a very significant scale, also just completely with the Bates upgrade. With what is [INAUDIBLE].

I just showed this to you for curiosity. This is a total manpower supported by high energy and nuclear physics. The orange represents the manpower in the universities with PhDs and graduate students. And the top is a similar thing for laboratories.

See, you did say I had until 2:30? Thank you. Thank you. Well, OK, there's a critical need for new facility since we have an exploratory science. And since what we're doing in this science is the only way we advance is being able to operate in a new physical domain.

And how do you get into a new physical domain? You get into of course, a new accelerator capability or new cosmic ray capability or neutrino detectors, what have you. So at the present time, the world's accelerators in terms of luminosity and center of mass, the US plans at least still keep us-- I've got to red check all the US machines, and the US plans with the SSC and tevatron upgrades keep us indeed competitive on a machine capability.

The world accelerator laboratories of course, are the ones here in the US. You have the ones you know of, Western Europe, Germany, Russia, Japan, PRC. Then you have an increasing importance being given to non-accelerator laboratories, which we have two in the US, the one in an old iron mine up in Minnesota, and the one in a salt mine in Ohio. [INAUDIBLE] in which several people here have experiments, [INAUDIBLE] in Soviet Union and [INAUDIBLE].

As you all know, international collaboration is really, really important for both high energy and nuclear physics. And it's worked very well, I think. We indeed have our fights between the different parts of the world, but I view it like a family. The family members are all still concerned about the overall health of the family. They may squabble, but they still have the same goals, they still work together on most things.

Long range planning is extremely important in this field. Since it's dominated by these large research facilities and long lead times, very expensive facilities, long range planning is essential. Fortunately, we have a long and good history of this going back formerly to the NSF panels in 1954 and '56. The general advisory committee, president science advisory committee panels at Piori and Ramsay. National Academy of Science committees coming out of this National Academy of Science panel under Pake issued in '64, published in '66.

The elementary particle sub-panel was under Bob Walker of Caltech. We wrote a policy for national action in high energy physics. Paul Reardon did a major part of that writing. Ray Fricken and I contributed some. And that was certainly one major vehicle whereby we got Fermi lab.

A story about that, of course, is that Bob Walker and his sub-panel had finished their study of elementary particle physics, and made their recommendation certainly by November 1964. In science, plagiarism is a very bad thing. In the government, it's not. Quite the contrary, it's a very good thing. Why should you try to generate something that may well come up second rate when you can pull from this guy and this guy this guy and have the best?

We cribbed entirely off of Bob Walker's report and put it in there. And of course, along with other things-- and Bob I don't think I ever completely forgave me because the Academy was very slow publishing then. It's not too fast now but very slow then. They didn't publish it until May of 1966. So it looked like he cribbed off of us.

Then one I would like to relate to is we have a many-- they're not all here cause we have many HEPAP sub-panel. HEPAP itself is kind of for what is keeping the program that's here good and reliable. It's not the best to look at the long term future of the program, where you may want to shut down some of those labs instead of keeping them going medium well. And so for that purpose, one use these new facilities sub-panels, the so-called [INAUDIBLE] sub-panels, the first one which Vicky chaired almost immediately after he became no longer the chairman of HEPAP itself in 1974. And at that time, if you recall what was on the funding graph, the new construction had gone down to zilch, zero, nothing for new construction.

That 1974 sub-panel chaired by Vicky, followed by the 1975 one chaired by Frances [INAUDIBLE], coupled with a report we wrote that talked about long term strategy for the national program was what carried through on what Vicky and his panel called the three pronged approach. Higher energy and proton-proton collisions, higher energy and electron positron collisions, and higher energy on proton fixed target. And that indeed, led to the tevatron I and II, led to [INAUDIBLE]. And well, tevatron I and II gave you both colliding beam and fixed target. And also, seems like it led to something else. Oh.

So the next thing is then how is DOE advised? Primary advice since '67 indeed, has been from HEPAP. HEPAP first meeting was in January of 1967. One reason it wasn't earlier than that is that we had already decided we wanted a HEPAP. We knew who we wanted as chairman.

And that chairman in his wisdom said he wanted to make sure that DOE selected the site for Fermilab before HEPAP got started so HEPAP didn't get blamed for what DOE did. And so when the site was selected in December of 1966 by Atomic Energy Commission, the meeting was followed soon after. The first three or four meetings were all held at the chairman's prerogative here at MIT, and set the tone, set the method by which HEPAP operated. HEPAP was that was used as a model, though many variations, for subsequent standing advisory committees in nuclear physics, fusion, material science.

Of course, the program uses-- as many of you as individuals knows-- uses many other mechanisms then HEPAP and standing committees and advisory committees. There was also a laboratory advisory committee [INAUDIBLE] ad hoc groups. And there also are many telephone calls that I'm sure many of you have received over the years from the various program people at DOE and at NSF.

The indicators of a successful program-- The ability to explore beyond the frontier of knowledge, which requires those things, discovery of new knowledge, deeper understanding of the physical world, national and international recognition, awards and Nobel prizes, president of science medal et cetera. And the program's done fairly well by that too. And I think we can say that LNS has done quite well certainly by the Nobel prizes, not only of its faculty, but also its students, but also in many other prizes, Fermi awards, presidents science award, you name them, staff members of this laboratory have had them.

So the summary is that it's a seemingly exciting field. It's becoming exceedingly interesting in the connections between elementary particles and cosmology. And the future is bright for more in technology.

Let's see. I have a couple more view graphs. But Before that, I wanted to get back up and just talk a while.

Essentially, in all of the things, all aspects which might be considered important to high energy and nuclear physics, programs, LNS has made truly seminal contributions. You've heard many this morning. You'll hear many more in the rest of the meeting. And some, I'm sure will be forgotten to be covered. Physics theory and experiment, education and training and the quality and achievements of the graduate students.

I wonder how many graduate students come out of here? I suppose you know [INAUDIBLE]. But there must be a fantastic number that's spread throughout the world.

Not a whole lot of emphasis has been [INAUDIBLE], but there's been a lot of accelerated work here, both in R&D and construction and design, operations and research. The early cyclotron, the 320 MEV electron synchrotron, the Cambridge electron accelerator, the development of the strong focusing principle, which Livingston was a significant contributor to, along with Courant and Snyder, Bates.

I don't see it on the program. Let me say just a little bit about the CEA story. Back in 1949, I guess it was, the synchocyclotron at Harvard was completed. And not too long after that, in '52 Ramsay was pushing that there needed to be higher energy around this region. He got together with Zacharias and Livingston in early '52, and they agreed on a joint effort towards a new accelerator in the Cambridge area.

By April of '52, Stan Livingston, who was indeed a professor here since indeed '38 sought funding from Stratton, as vice president of the MIT and sought people to help with a design study from [INAUDIBLE], the director Brookhaven. And wanted to go towards the design of a 10 GTP proton synchrotron. Well, compromise, he went to Brookhaven that summer. And during the next very few months, together with Courant and Snyder, developed a strong focus in principle which has had a major effect, certainly on particle nuclear physics, but also on many other things throughout the world.

Certainly one of the immediate things that has is that CERN raised-- CERN, which came over shortly after this, raised their sights from 10 GEV machine to the 28 GEV machine they built. The AGS raised their sights to a 30 GEV machine, and actually got approval to build that in 1954, just less than two years later. I was fascinated by this.

A paper on the subject was probably still that same year in [INAUDIBLE] of 88 in 1952, the Courant, Livingston, and Snyder paper. Then Stan came back here and kept working on proposals, putting a 10 to 20 GEV proton synchrotron proposal to the AEC in October of '52, put in a 15 BEV proton synchrotron proposal. And August of '53, he ran into trouble. And at the GAC, the general advisory committee to the AEC had said that multi-BEV machines-- were going across on the pre-storm focusing principle-- should only be at national laboratories.

In March of '54 he switched to a 6 GEV electron synchrotron. Proposed it in August of '54 to the AEC. Waited in '55, while the PPA, MURA, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, and others put in proposals for machines. And what will you believe but the Congress on its own? I'm sure there is no influence from here.

Inserted $10 million for two university accelerators and the AEC budget in the spring of '54. There was a letter that went out from AEC to the presence of many universities in July of '55, saying get to me in three to six months a proposal if you want to build an accelerator less than or equal to $5 million. Even when I came to AEC in 1962, I heard of this. This was known as a box top contest there. Anyway, CEA and PPA won that box top contract.

And CEA signed a later contract in April '56. First, it was thought to be $7.9 million. Eventually completed in 1962 for $11.5 million.

But a fascinating story I think on indeed, the initiative of Ramsey. And Ramsey stayed involved all the time. But also very much work on the part of Stan Livingston an LNS professor and the director of the CEA.

The Bates story, I learned a little bit about today even, Bates of course, started construction in '66. And I was wondering how it got started. And I understand it got started by Peter Deimos, as you say opened his big mouth. And that they were sitting around with Sergeant [INAUDIBLE] and so forth about what could he do next. And he said, well, maybe we should build a new machine.

And he said they took him up on it. So coming out of that was the base machine, which has done much good research. It's just completing a very major upgrade, . And should do much more

The pattern recognition device, a pepper [INAUDIBLE] in particular, helped. Much help here from on computer development detectors. Much detector work here. One of the things I said that MIT received more support in high energy physics than any other university. But many universities receive significant levels of support.

One of my observations was when the level of support got to be a certain size, there would be a [INAUDIBLE]. And a new group would form, a new leadership. And so much of the research was carried out with the same statistics.

But I observed that a lot of the work that's been done in this laboratory has been of a larger scale. And it certainly, I think, has paid off for the laboratory. Certainly in detectors, the world's largest was under the direction of Sam King here, a most fabulous thing, and under the administrative direction of [INAUDIBLE], a significant part from here.

Policy and advice-- well, I guess I've said all I should say at this time about HEPAP. Certainly Vicky was a major influence on the US program. And Francis [INAUDIBLE] and Sid [INAUDIBLE], who is certainly associated with this laboratory too. HEPAP sub-panels I've talked about. NSCA, much of course, policy and advice from Herman Fishback, from Art Kerman, particularly in the nuclear physics field.

Program funding-- let me cut this a bit. But I do want to read something from the first contract they could find for me out at DOE. Term of the contract was April 1, 1958 to and including January 31, 1959. It was for $1.4 million compared with today's $26 million. And I want to read a bit on the scope of work.

The contract is showing good faith to the best of its ability and know how in accordance et cetera. Conduct eight separate programs of research in nuclear physics, which are identified as followed. Scope one, cosmic research under the direction of Rossi. Scope two, high energy accelerator physics research under Bernie Feld. Scope three, bubble changer research under Williams.

Scope four, linear accelerator research under [INAUDIBLE]. Scope five, ONR nuclear energy level studies under [INAUDIBLE]. Scopes six, radioactivity and cyclotron research under Martin Deutsch. And theoretical research under [INAUDIBLE]. And Rockefeller generator program under [INAUDIBLE], all of it under the overall direction of Deutsch.

Just so you think that bureaucratic effects weren't involved then, under Article four personnel, there is a phrase that says provided however, that there shall be subject to the written approve the commission reimbursement for salaries in excess of $15,000 per year. So salaries more than 15 had to be approved directly by the commission. The recent renewal of this contract, which is accumulated all the funding over all this period added to somewhere between $410 and $450 million. Just like [INAUDIBLE] used to say, a billion here and a billion there, and pretty soon you've get real money. In research, a million here and a million there, and pretty soon you've get real money.

So in program funding, LNS has certainly helped the national program. They've also done very well themselves, but with what they are putting out of course, indeed what they get funded for. International collaboration-- I'm sorry. Let's see.

Throughout the entire faculty things that certainly stand out. Though much in my mind though is Vicky, truly an internationalist. Of course, he was the director general of CERN '61 to '66. Sam Ting, the work he did with Mark [INAUDIBLE] at Daisy, he worked at the L3 at CERN. I watched Sam and that L3.

And whenever he ran into money troubles, he'd first come to us. Hildebrand, very reluctant to give money to anybody, it seems. So he'd go off and pull in another collaborator. And fantastic negotiations he must have had having a PRC, the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, a lot of the US.

Actually, when were having lunch, I'd forgotten one thing that [INAUDIBLE] contributed, and that's a government leader. The first boss at the Department of Energy, John Deutch, from MIT came on, to not only head up the Office of Energy Research, but in fact with Schlesinger spending most of his time in the White House, John from our viewpoint, ran the Department of Energy. And John and I had good and bad interactions. When he first came on, he planned to fire me. But my good friend Sid [INAUDIBLE] talked him out of it.

Later he told me, he said, William, you're my second best program direct manager in all of the DOE. I was reluctant to ask him who was first. He told me [INAUDIBLE].

A couple of years after that, I had Ed [INAUDIBLE] who had headed up in the fusion program, came back to me and said he'd met John Deutsch. And John Deutsch told him that he was the third best program manager in all of DOE. I said, oh, he's consistent.

I'd like to show those two view graphs, and then I'm finished. Now the question is what did I do with them. This is the picture of Stan Livingston, Courant and Snyder, and also John Blewett at the time of the strong focusing principle discovery and development. And things have I think gone well for the Department of Energy, for high energy nuclear physics, and for LNS.

Now you can take this. It says the areas is clean, the food is nutritious, and we've got inflation licked. We can go on like this forever. Now whether that's a caution or whether that's praise depends upon what time you think they came in the dinosaur heritage.

After all, they lived on Earth what? Millions and millions and millions of years, much longer than we have been. On the other hand, they are extinct now.